In a repeat of last year, Bagdad and Mogollon will meet in the State Final. And I will say rightfully so. Both teams displayed superior play execution and sportsmanship. Disappointingly, both Pima and Gilbert Christian showed a clear (yes I said it again), lack of class when the game didn't go thier way. I could get descriptive, but chose not to because I don't think it's necessary. I had the pleasure if sitting by coach Slade for most of the Bagdad/GIlbert Christian game. The man truly is a class act. It is how it should be, and will be fun to play them again. As for Pima and Gilbert Christian, both should take a cold hard look and decide how they want to teach the game of football to the young men coming through their programs. After all, isn't the game such as life? It's how I was taught, way back when, by a tough ornery old man with leather bear paws for hands.;-)
Pretty disappointing, Chapo. And pretty revealing. More condescension and lecturing about sportsmanship from a supporter of a team which had a player ejected this season and was involved in a brawl. I know of one incident from late in the Pima/Mogollon game that was dealt with quickly and correctly. It didn't involve the other team and apologies were immediate and sincere. it's possible you saw something else, maybe even multiple things. I didn't. But that's actually not the point. To imply that you know enough about what is taught in the Pima program to render such judgements and lectures is disingenuous, unnecessary, and classless. You made it clear on these message boards that Bagdad shared some blame in the event with Mayer and that you were saddened. Reasonable posters understood the heat of the moment and accepted the certainty that the Bagdad program does not attempt to instill anything but the best qualities in their players. Other than some angry Mayer supporters, I don't remember supporters from other schools (myself included) weighing in with baseless condescension, finger wagging, and judgements even as you continued to hype the wonderful sportsmanship of the Sultans in the weeks that followed. It reminded me of enduring seven years of President Bush patting himself on the back for keeping us safe, ignoring that our biggest safety breach ever also happened during his tenure. I do not know enough about the Bagdad program to question anything you have said about what is taught or not taught and I am absolutely certain that you do not know enough about the Pima program and how it operates to make any comment that could be deemed educated. Or informed. Or reasonable. You saw an opening for a cheap shot and you took it. All while espousing the value and importance of sportsmanship. You'd probably call it "telling like it is." The only problem is that you have to know "how it is" first. Pima played Bagdad with no incident twice in the last three years. You gave a glowing review of the game this year. I witnessed first hand a horrible display from a handful of Bagdad fans at half time but kept it to myself. Irrelevant. Pima has not had player ejections under the current staff and hasn't been involved in a brawl in a least 20 years. I guess, if I'm being honest, you are exactly the right person from whom to learn a lesson on the "clear lack of class." All that said, I am a firm believer in anyone doing what they think they need to do or saying what they think they need to say. It always tells more about you than the topic you are addressing.
Nice Sheepdog. Although, I will say that I really didn't expect any less. You know it's funny, I was just thinking today how sometimes right and wrong are seperated by a hairs breadth. The paths look almost identical, however one is tainted and the other is not. As I said in another post on another thread: it is easy to justify poor behavior. It's even easier to deflect the exposure onto someone else. Intelligent people are really good at doing this, and I have no doubt you are an intelligent individual. But the fact remains, right is right and wrong is wrong. Thank you for reminding me of what I wrote earlier in the year. I wrote it exactly how I saw it. The first game was a great game with good sportsmanship. I don't recall any poor sportsmanship from players, fans, or coaches. Sounds like you do, but never brought it up until now. That is a perfect example of deflection. Additionally, again you are correct. I did in fact say that both Bagdad and Mayer teams were wrong on the brawl. This is truly how I felt. Also, yes I did get on this board and tout Bagdads performance over the last three weeks. And indeed thier sportsmanship and precision was exactly how I described, and indeed they showed it again this last Saturday, My intentions were indeed to point out the improvement of the program and encourage continued like behavior. I guess I could have spelled that out for you, but I kinda thought it would go without saying. The fact that you bring those things up, again is deflection. One only deflects when they want to remove the negative spotlight from themselves. A good true sportsman will own up to his mistakes, and humbly ask for forgiveness, and then once received, will change the behavior for the better from that point on. I would ask what kind of man you chose to be, but I think that's pretty obvious already. Go try to look yourself in the mirror and spout the same crap you just wrote on here. If you can do it, then you are living in a complete state of denial, and need to work on your spirit. Work on your program, do things right, and then come back and play. With the talent that Pima always has, no one would be able to beat them.
Again, another GC person making my point for me. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "these are 17-18 year old kids were talking about, let them make mistakes. First off, I never blamed the kids. It is the program that is sour. And the program is the Coach, Administration, and Community. And you further prove the point by making excuses for the kids. That only justifies their behavior. Take a look at our country. When did we start justifying poor behavior? I'll tell you when. It was when we adults couldn't take responsibility for not teaching our kids right, and now blame it on their age. This continues to happen, and nothing will change if this is the thought process. We complain about how lazy, entitled, and disrespectful kids are "nowadays". Yet we condone thier poor behavior over and over again. Why? Because that's how we acted in our youth? So we are now teaching as our parents did? How can we ever expect positive change when we do this?
I have already addressed what you mentioned about Bagdads team numbers in previous posts, earlier in the year, but I wil do it again. Bagdad has around 130 students.mThe reason they have so many football players is because they have a good program. Again, this is the Coaches, Adminstratiion, and Community. There are very strong youth football, baseball, and softball programs in Bagdad. Parents often spend a lot of time and money traveling to other towns, taking their kids to compete against typically bigger towns. There are good coaches at every level, in every sport, with great support from the community. Is it perfec? Most certainly not, but it takes a lot of diligent hard work, open communication, and commitment from everyone involved. People in Bagdad simply do not shirk this responsibility. If Bagdads students numbers grow, and they reach the limit set by the AIA, they will certainly move up.
You waste energy making excuses, trying to deflect the shortcomings of you and your program. Why wouldn't you spend that energy on making that program better? There is obviously a lot of talent that comes through your school. Your in it most of the time in multiple sports. Your school obviously has money. Why not spend it wisely to build good strong character in the kids, instead of using it to buy basketball teams, fancy fields, and shady coaches? Don't answer. This is a rhetorical question. One to generate reflective action to defeat denial and create needed change. Better yet, don't respond at all, just try to consider that there is a slight chance that what I am saying is true.
I'm not taking sides here, but ANYONE sitting in the stands, has no idea about "sportsmanship" or lack of that is happening ON the field. You can't see "most" of it, and you certainly can't hear any of it. Just because a kid helps an opponent up after the play, doesn't tell you what was being said or happening during the play or in the pile. I know you know that.
Listen, they're all kids and EVERY team has a few kids, that can and do behave really poorly at times. You have to look for a pattern, or a reputation that is confirmed or rejected, by the behavior on the field or court. As for people suggesting you move up, because Bagdad has developed a dominant program is ridiculous. The reward, for kids, coaches and communities buying into a program, and working hard to support that program should never be a forced move up a division. I commend Bagdad for making their program a top tier program. As for sportsmanship, I can't say, I have not been present to witness it. Just hearsay. Good luck in your game.
But I will say, I think its funny when people cry foul and say that a team should "move up" just because they have built a good program. Before last season, Bagdad had not won a state title in football for 60 years. And now all of the sudden they need to go to D5 because they are too good? Please...
Bagdad is right where they belong. They have 125 kids in their entire high school. Almost half of what the biggest D6 schools have enrollment wise.
GC fan. The solution to your problem is for your football program to get better. So you can compete with the elite D6 teams. The solution is not for all of the elite teams to move up, just because you arent on their level.
Initially, as I put in my first post, I didn't think it necessary to get into specifics, but since you weren't there I guess I will. During the Pima Mogollon game, in the first half Mogollon dominated Pima and it surprised them. They couldn't handle it and we're throwing helmets on the sidelines. Not the worst that can happen, but in the second half on a Mogollon 4th down, they punted the ball. The Pima player almost blocked the punt, and instead of pulling up, he put a hit on the punter. Now the ball did a short hop on the way to the punter, which may have made it a live ball, so the Pima player may have had rights to make the hit. Regardless, the officials threw the flag. Pima, including the fans were upset by this and booed the refs. The Mogollon punter was hurt laying in the field. Pima did not take a knee, which is fine, maybe they don't do that in Pima. Instead two of their players on the field turned towards the Mogollon sidelines and raised their arms in the air, taunting the Mogoloon team, coaches, and fans. Mogollon did not respond. Eventually the Mogllon player got up on his own accord and when he did, he was then booed by Pima. It was absolutely disgusting.
Gilbert Christian: chopped blocked over and over again. Specifically on Bagdads Middle linebacker. The linebacker finally had enough and went and told the officials. On the next play it happened again, and this time a flag was thrown. Following that another flag was thrown for unsportsmanlike conduct on a GC player for trying to fight a Bagdad player away from the play. Following that another flag was thrown on the GC head coach for unsportsmanlike conduct, he continued to rant and rave on the sideline for the remainder of the game, which had about 3 minutes left, I believe. I'm not sure why he wasn't ejected, or maybe he was and just wouldn't leave.
This is all on film. You should take a look at it. As an official, it would be great to get your perspective. This is why I stand so strongly on this. It was ugly, and now both Pima and GC are trying to defend and deflect their actions. You tell me what you would do in this situation. I never said I or Bagdad was perfect, ever. As a matter of fact, when I felt Bagdad was in the wrong, or doing something I didn't agree with, I have always said so. Sometimes, resulting in me not being the most popular guy in town on occasion. when Bagdad does things well and right, your damn right I am going to talk about that too. Don't believe me? Just ask coach Mills, or Danny Corbin. Heck, please call over to the Philippines and ask coach Tate. If you do, tell him I never forget, and am still patiently awaiting his return...
First a classless lecture about class followed by hundreds of words of deflection claiming deflection. You are a genius. Let's be clear, Chapo, that we were not discussing the incident of unsportsmanlike behavior which wasn't even identified. You made a claim concerning the state of the Pima program. I spent the entirety of my rebuttal refuting that claim. That's the opposite of deflection. A Quick recap...
Chapo - Pima showed a lack class in some unidentified incident(s) and needs to reevaluate what and how it wants to teach its players about football/life.
Me - (1) A bit hypocritical coming from a supporter whose team has had a player ejection and was involved in a brawl. (2) Admission of one incident that I witnessed that was handled immediately and exactly the right way. The incident did not involve Mogollon. (3) You know next to nothing about the Pima football program, what it teaches, or how it teaches it. (4) Supporters of other programs displayed the class you apparently lack by not jumping on the Mayer situation with ignorant conclusions, condemnation, and condescension. I would never presume to jump to categorical conclusions about the Bagdad program even if I had been there to see the incident myself. (5) As it relates to the Pima football program, you are uneducated, uninformed, and unreasonable. (6) With the Pima program enduring the end of their season, you took the opportunity to take an unprovoked cheap shot all while being MaxPreps' resident expert on class. (7) Similar to sprinkler's addition, I point out that Pima has almost no history or pattern of classlessness, certainly not to any extent that would justify your baseless original claim. (8) To "tell it like it is" you first have to know "how it is." You clearly don't. Also, "telling it like it is" from game to game is not the same as taking that information and coming to unsubstantiated or ignorant conclusions. (9) I had opportunities to drag down the Bagdad program after what I witnessed from fans on week zero and what I heard about from the Mayer brawl, but made the proper judgment that those individual moments do not reflect the wonderful work done by the Bagdad program on a day to day basis. Were you displaying the class you seem to hold so dearly, you would have done the same. That helps me on my "looks in the mirror."
You almost entirely ignored all those points. That is deflection. You instead went back on your high horse about how the right thing to do (for others, of course) would be to show humility, apologize, etc. (all which was ironcially done - at least for the incident to which I refer). I justified no poor behavior. I refuted your claim about the Pima program. We never even identified the behavior.
You know almost nothing about the Pima program, the man I choose to be, my spirit or (incidentally) quite a few other topics on which you spew condescending judgment. Yet you present yourself as some kind of authority. You are simply wrong in your assessment of the Pima program. Wrong on a factual level. Wrong on an ethical level. Consummately wrong.
There is right and there is wrong. The film does not lie. It really is that simple. I am not judging you or anyone else. I am suggesting that through effort there can be improvement. I gave the specifics in my last post. I am not intending to ignore your statements, truly I am not. They just simply don't matter sir.
I'm going to make a quick reply as I was typing my reply above while the others were being posted. First, let me say that the incident to which I was referring IS NOT the same as the one Chapo described. I did not see the two players taunt the Mogollon sideline. I would love to know the numbers of those players and film of the incident.
As for the actual play - The ball did hit the ground and the player who hit the punter actually also blocked the punt. The officials confirmed that the punt was blocked but ruled that the player still should not have hit the punter. How someone coming hard on a punt block can get close enough to block the punt but still be able to lay off the hit would be an interesting discussion. But since it doesn't appear that there is a major problem with the hit, the issue is the reaction.
First, let me be clear in reminding you that Pima has done absolutely no "defending or deflecting" of these actions. Only now did we even identify the what the actions were. I did not see them. There was an incident late in the game involving Pima players that was very mild, and handled exactly right. That's the only incident I knew of. It's disingenuous, Chapo, to call someone's character into question and accuse them of defending poor behavior when you had yet to even say what the behavior was.
That said, if Pima players taunted the Mogollon sidelines at any point and for any reason, the behavior in indefensible. As for the players kneeling, that was an oversight on the Pima coaches. Keep in mind that navigating the call on the punt when you factor in the time and situation was pretty all-encompassing. Pima has always knelt in similar situations. Often times. the officials will instruct the players (on the field at least) to take a knee. I don't think that was the case. I also don't remember if Mogollon took a knee. But, I have to admit not noticing one way or the other as I was engrossed in the discussion of the call. As a volunteer assistant, that is exactly the kind of thing I should be helping take care of while the head coach and defensive coordinator are preoccupied.
As for the taunting - like I said - indefensible. I'm forced, however, to have to take your interpretation of the event wholesale, Chapo, since I did not see it at all. Yours has become an insight, though, that I do not trust in the slightest. You have indeed called out Bagdad at times, but your team was in a brawl this season (worse than the incident you describe here) and while you may have done it privately, you did not come on these boards and call it disgusting or suggest Coach Mills look in the mirror and reevaluate what he's teaching his players. In fact, it was the REACTION and FINGER POINTING that followed that you called disgusting! Bagdad was in a brawl and you were disgusted by the REACTION and FINGER POINTING that followed. Now, Pima has an incident and in your REACTION and FINGER POINTING it is the incident that is disgusting. I am a fan, Chapo. Truly. Bravo.
In that respect, your original claim of the state of the Pima program remains as wrong as it ever was.
There is certainly right or wrong about any given incident, Chapo. There is also right and wrong concerning your claim concerning the state of the Pima program. Those are two entirely different things. My statements concerning the state of the program matter hugely to that debate. I agree that they don't matter to the right or wrong-ness of the incident you describe. Don't pretend, however, that up until just now, we were debating the actual incident. That would be the ultimate deflection.
The state of denial that you live in is incredible. I can see that that being the case, I have completely wasted my time arguing with you. I don't have a problem with you not trusting things I say, or even questioning my integrity. You don't know me, you just think you do. What you really know is yourself, and how you think, and then judge me on what you would do and how you are. Keep talking, justifying and deflecting, your good at it. But realize that when you do, you are only validating the things I have said.
We have to come on here and get a sportsmanship lecture from you, and listen to you tout the Sultan sportsmanship. I don't think so! Sheepdog makes an excellent point about actual Sultan sportsmanship (Mayer game) and you come back with "deflection" comments? Come on Man! That is deflection. Just the fact that you have to come on here and throw rocks at some teams that are already down and say that they don't have "class" is ironic. If you had any class you wouldn't have to do that. Your statement that "I could get descriptive, but chose not to because I don't think it's necessary" is just smoke to hide that fact that you have no legitimate examples.
The only thing I could agree with in your post was that Coach Slade is a great person. He is and he is a good coach too. I can't speak for GC coaches and fans because I am not familiar with them, but as someone who has competed and coached against Pima for over 35 years i can tell you two things; 1. they are going to play hard, and 2. they are good people (Coaches, players and fans). Coach Hancock is a stand-up guy and even though I hate the fact that they have been better than us for the last couple of years, in football, I still have to give them their props for being stand-up players and coaches. There are programs out there that I do not respect, but Pima is not one of them.
My grandmother used to say, "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. I am not saying anything bad about the Bagdad football team, but I will say that some of the crap that I read from Sultan fans on this site is garbage and does not reflect well on your team.
Don't be a hater it does not reflect well on an otherwise solid program.
Once again, you ignore specific points and speak in useless generalities. Once you identified the incident, I said clearly that taunting was indefensible. I've also clearly pointed out (with actual details) your inconsistencies in applying what you claim to believe equally and fairly to Bagdad's program as well as others'. I haven't pretended to "know you" in the slightest. Saying that I don't trust your insight comes not from knowing you, but from knowing what I require to gain trust. Go back and see how many times I claimed to know how you operate and how many times you claimed to know how I do ("The state of denial that YOU live in is incredible") - took a long time to find an example. Since your first JUDGEMENT about Pima's program you have been the deflector. I have used your own words to make my points and you continue to ignore them because your argument is lost.
Taunting the other team is indefensible.
Claiming that the Pima program is doing a poor job teaching its players (based on one, isolated incident) while preaching a very different tune when your own program had a worse incident, and while being completely ignorant about the functions of the Pima program and an apparently only occasional believer in the importance of being classy is embarrassingly short-sighted and hypocritical. And equally indefensible.
You are unable to argue to the contrary. About the only thing you have argued correctly is that this has become a waste of time.
Yes really. And actually I did give specific examples. Did you fail to read that. And I also stated that initially, I thought it wasn't necessary, but was wrong, so then did indeed give specific examples. Did you fail to read that too? How is that deflection. Were you at the game? If not, watch the film. I am not going to give out the Pima kids numbers on here, because I don't think it is the right thing to do. It's not because I don't know, because I certainly do, I just don't think it is necessary. If anyone wants to find out the numbers of the players who did this, I am sure it can be found on the film. Coach Slade is a great man. I asked him how he dealt with the situation aftwr the game. He said he just told his players to keep their heads and not retaliate.
Also, I did say on this board my feelings about the Bagdad incident. I also gave my opinion on the subsequent comments from both sides. Now I am being accused that in doing so I am deflecting from the situation, which in fact is untrue. It's all in writing. Pick through every comment if you want, tell yourself a story, justify it, retort, and make me out to be the bad guy I don't care. I know my intentions, and you can't change that, no matter how much you want to try to twist it.
And Sheepdog. The reason I took so long the be specific about the incidents that happen is because I did not want the focus to go onto the Pima kids. I knew that in doing so, you and other coaches would immediately jump on that, avoiding personal responsibility, by telling us all how it was quickly and firmly addressed. And this is exactly what you did. Again, it's in writing, go back and look.
Just stop writing. In doing so, you just expose yourself more and more.
You have me mixed up with someone else in SJ. As I told you the last time I visibly or audibly acted like an A$$ in public I was corrected by a old coach of mine---that was near 30 years ago when I was a teenager.
With regard to "chop block" it does not exist. It is defined as blocking below the waist, and can be called on either the offense or the defense. A block below the waist is exactly that, outside what is defined as the "free blocking Zone". The free blocking zone is 3 by 3 by 4 by 4 yards. It is highly possible that the blocks below the waist on the Bagdad middle backer could have been legal. I would have to see the film.
With regard to film, I've never seen one with audio from the field in high school. Most are taken far enough away from the field that you can't hear much. Sometimes, even on the field or at field level you don't hear or see things that happen. Quite often when players say something and are flagged for it, the coach asks what he said. So again, sitting in the stands, gives you less than half the perspective needed to pass/reach any conclusion
Thanks For the clarification Sprinkler. I I always just called what you described a "chop block" Regardless, the officials saw it and flagged it, so they thought it was an illegal block. I really don't care if it wa or not. I was more concerned about the backers knees taking that much punishment over and over again, that's all. And also, the subsequent reaction of the coach, who was also flagged. I'll admit, I couldn't hear what he said, but whatever it was, it was enough get his team penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct.
I will also admit that I didn't hear a word out of any of the Pima Players or coaches. I did hear booing from the fans, but nothing from the players or coaches. What I saw though was two Pima players turn toward the Mogollon sidelines and raise their hands from their sides, up into the air several times within about a minute. I have seen this done a lot by players who are trying to tell there own stands to make some noise, at least I think that is generally understood what that gesture means. I could be wrong on their intentions, it is possible that they were just waving hello to the opposing team, while the injured player laid on the field. Or maybe they were sending encouraging energy to help him up, I don't think so, but it is possible.