Have to disagree with you on this one LJ. Haven't seen a book in a few years but at one time it stated that any time a batter enters the dugout in a live ball situation the batter was out. Prior to entering he could still go to first, similar to a droped third strike and his baseline became a strait line from his starting point to the bag.
Could be, and I won't argue the point, but it's different from the 3rd strike scenario in that the defense has no opportunity to put him out. The baseline doesn't come into play because of the same thing. This situation is more like the "after reaching first, obviously abandons his right to the bag." True, the casebook does say that when he enters the dugout in that situation he is out, so I could be wrong about the dugout deal.
I put this situation on the NFHS site, and they said that technically there could be no appeal of BR not touching first as is in this case. The umpire made the mistake when he didn't instruct BR to go immediately to first and touch it.
Consensus from the NFHS board is that because Batter refused to take advantage of his awarded base, he could be called out when he entered the dugout, no appeal necessary. Because 3rd out resulted from Batter not reaching first base, no run scores, and we go to the 8th inning.
New question for everyone, Catcher comes to bat, coach calls time and puts in a legal sub for catcher who is batting, new hitter gets a single. Coach calls time and wants to use a Courtesy Runner, Legal or Illegal?? Please provide NFHS rule and number not just opinion. We know a sub is not a pitcher until he takes the mound and warms up but what about the catcher???
Well, you have really restricted my ability to answer the question, because there is no such rule that addresses your situation verbatim, and no casebook play either. But, the answer is illegal. Well, I guess it's legal for the coach to call time and ask for a courtesy runner, but it's illegal for the umpire to grant him.
There is casebook precedence for the fact that the courtesy runner runs for the position and not the player - and it may give us some help in this situation.
cr 15 situation
adams courtesy runs for f1 (jones) in the 1st inning. baker courtesy runs for f2 (smith) in the 3rd inning. in the 4th inning, jones and smith swap defensive positions. which person can adams courtesy run for?
ruling: a courtesy runner may run for either the pitcher or catcher but not both. adams, having been a courtesy runner for jones when he was a pitcher, may only be a courtesy runner for a pitcher. once a player is a courtesy runner for a position, he can only continue to courtesy run for a player in that particular position. adams may courtesy run for smith since smith is now the pitcher in the game.
The problem we have with your situation is that we don't know who the catcher is at this point in time. All we have is a pinch hitter who has not played a defensive position yet.
I know - the next question you are going to ask is "What about the visiting team in the first inning?" Well, the pitching position is locked in, because the rule states that the guy listed as pitcher must come out in the bottom and face at least one batter (with exceptions noted.) The position of catcher is problematic, because if he gets up to bat and gets on, we're gonna allow him a courtesy runner, and there is nothing to stop the defense from swapping catchers in the bottom half. Official ruling from NFHS is to allow the courtesy runner in the first inning in good faith, but in subsequent innnings, the proof is in the pudding - if the guy hasn't played defense as the catcher, then he's not the catcher. (or pitcher for that matter)
As far as penalty goes, the award for obstruction is the base the runner is assumed to have reached if there were no obstruction, and always a minimum of one base beyond the base he had reached when the obstruction occurred.
SOOOOOOO - you could give him 3rd and say that he had not made 3rd when the tag was made, or you could give him home, saying that he already had 3rd made when the tag was applied.
8-3-2: ART. 2 . . . When a runner is obstructed (2-22-1, 2-22-2, 2-22-3) while advancing or returning to a base, the umpire shall award the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction the bases they would have reached, in his opinion, had there been no obstruction. If the runner achieves the base he was attempting to acquire, then the obstruction is ignored. The obstructed runner is awarded a minimum of one base beyond his position on base when the obstruction occurred. If any preceding runner is forced to advance by the awarding of a base or bases to an obstructed runner, the umpire shall award this preceding runner the necessary base or bases. Malicious contact supersedes obstruction. Runner(s) will be awarded appropriate base(s) per umpire judgement. When obstruction occurs, the umpire gives the delayed dead ball signal and calls "obstruction." If an award is to be made, the ball becomes dead when time is taken to make the award.
Well, the rule was put into place to keep a guy from thinking he is about to be tagged and sliding instead of rounding the base and heading for the next one. As an umpire, you have to apply the spirit of the rule as well as the letter of the law. If you're the ump and you think the fake tag prevented the guy from possibly gaining another base, then give it to him. if it didn't, no harm, no foul.
A batter pops up a ball in foul territory behind home plate. The ball is coming down close to the back net but it does NOT touch the net, nor anything else, during its descent. The catcher attempts to make a catch. The ball hits the catcher's mitt, bounces out, and then off of the net before landing back in the mitt for a catch. The ball never touches the ground. Is the ball a dead ball once it hits the net even though it touched the catcher's mitt first?
1. touches any object other than the ground or any person other than a fielder; or
2. goes directly from the bat to the catcher's protector, mask or person without first touching the catcher's glove or hand;
3. or becomes an uncaught foul; or
The fact that the ball touched the mitt first has no bearing on this play because the ball touched another object. Other objects, including the umpire in this case, are treated just like the ground. If the ball had hit the mitt, fell to the ground and the catcher "caught" it on the hop, it would not be an out, right?
I was at a game last week not going to mention any of the team names. Near the final few innings with 2 outs and a runner on first. The batter struck out swinging but the catcher didn't cleanly catch the pitch. The batter starts running to first but the umpire calls the batter out already. The defensive team starts to jog off the field but the base runners kept running the bases. The defensive team was all in the infield by this time and one of the defensive players grabbed the ball from the pitcher's mound and stood in front of home plate so the runners couldn't advance more. The coach for the team that was batting at the time asked about the strike out call. The umpires changed the call that the batter was not out at the time when he swung and catcher missed the pitch. The defensive coach came out to ask should the runners be moved back to second and first. The umpires didn't change that call so both runners stayed at second and third with two outs with the defensive team having to go back out for one more out. Does anyone know the rule for this situation?
Yeah - Rule #1 is "never call a batter out unless he's out." Rule #2 - Never change a judgment call once it's been made. When you say, "didn't cleanly catch it" what do you mean? did it hit the ground?
Given: top of the last inning, one out man on 3rd. Fly ball caught for out #2, runner scores on tag. Pitcher gets the ball, steps on the rubber, steps off and throws to third base on appeal the runner left third before the fly ball catch. Ump agrees and calls the runner out. I think I have the rule particulars right. Correct me on anything.
Question: Same situation but the bottom of the last inning in a tie game. How does the pitcher appeal if everyone, including the umps are leaving because the game seems to be over? There is no reason for the pitcher to get the ball back. I guess the pitcher could demand the ball, get the ump's and third baseman's attention and then do the appeal. How would this appeal be handled? What if the home ump signaled game over without the pitcher having a chance to appeal?
I'd like a Federation and NCAA answer if possible.
First of all, any appeal has to be made before umpire leaves the field. By "field" it is commonly accepted to mean inside the fence as opposed to inside the foul lines. (Mainly because a good portion of the umpire's time is spent outside the foul lines.) 8-2-6j: j. end of game. if any situation arises which could lead to an appeal by the defense on the last play of the game, the appeal must be made while an umpire is still on the field of play. Secondly, in HS ball, the pitcher doesn't need the ball, because the coach or another player can appeal verbally without the ball, after the ball has become dead: 8-2-6c: c. dead ball. the dead-ball appeal may be made: 1) once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called, a coach or any defensive player, with or without the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. the administering umpire should then make a decision on the play. 2) if the ball has gone out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base-running responsibilities before the dead-ball appeal can be made. Also let me mention that even though it's the last play of the game, the ball is not "automatically dead." The fielder who caught the ball can still throw it to the base, or simply run to the base and step on it for a live ball appeal. If the BR has left the base too soon, and the umpire saw it, more than likely he's gonna stick around to see if it is going to be appealed.
Third, I noticed the football influence in your last statement. In baseball, there is no official signal that the game is over. We just pack up and go home. We may say something like, "Ballgame" when/if there is a question such as the 10 run rule, but that doesn't carry official weight like in football. An appeal can still be made even though everybody including the umpires think the game is over.